Yamaha TF USB Interface With Multiplay

Started by Skullzofdoom, June 16, 2022, 08:41:48 AM

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Skullzofdoom

Hey All,

Has anyone used Multiplay with a USB interface before? I'm trying to use a Yamaha TF series console with Multiplay so I can have additional outputs. I need to have 2 speakers behind a CYC with output control over each of them, then I need to have an output for the mains. Normally when connecting to the TF series console, a software like Multiplay automatically knows that the TF a 34x34 interface, but Multiplay is only seeing it as a stereo single channel output. I'd like to be able to go into the output patch of Multiplay and see Yamaha TF 1, Yamaha TF 2, and so on, with up the 34x34 the console supports. I do have the USB driver installed for the console on the laptop, but that didn't fix the issue.

In programs like Qlab, the mac can only see a stero output, but qlab is able to see all 34x34 inputs/outputs. Multiplay doesn't seem to do this. Would this be something that could be fixed with the next multiplay update or?

The end goal is to be able to send certain sound effect to different places on stage, but currently I'm limited to a single stereo output that is grouped together. The PA I am working with is mono, so I can pan certain sound effects to L and other to R, so the TF splits the sends into there own channels, but I am still missing my much needed 3rd Multiplay output. I did come up with a work around for this, but it isn't the prettiest thing. In the future it would be great for Multiplay support the 34x34 inputs/outputs that the TF supports.

I've looked into getting a Scarlet 4i4, but I don't want to spend the over $200 on it, for Multiplay to have the same issue with it because it's another USB interface.

If anyone has ever gotten this to work the way I'd like it to, please let me know how to do so.

Thank you to anyone that is able to help with this, and thank you to David for making Multiplay, one of the best Sound FX players on Windows!

EdK

Hi  Skullzofdoom,

If I understand correctly what you're trying to do....  Basically you're looking for more then 2 channels of output from Multiplay that you can send to the Yamaha mixer via USB?

If so,  I would think this would need to be done via a Windows driver and that driver would need to be provided by Yamaha so Multplay can 'see' all the Yamaha channels.

I used a free product called Voicemeter on Windows to accept multiple inputs into the computer from various locations (Zoom, Mackie mixer, and Multiplay output (playback) of tracks. It's basically a virtual mixing console with multiple inputs (real and virtual) and outputs (real and virtual).   There are three flavors of Voicemeter:   Voicemeter, Voicemeter Banana, and Voicemeter Potato.  Both Banana and Potato are purchased but you have a generous free grace period to try it with no upfront outlay of money.   Maybe that would do what you need?  Both Banana and Potato take some time for you to wrap your head around them because those developed kind of ad-hoc and are a bit confusing at first.

Your Scarlett idea would definitely work but as you said, it's hardware that needs to be purchased.

Ed
Windows 10 Home x64
Dell XPS 7590 Intel i7-9750H
16gb RAM - 1tb SSD
GeForce GTX 1650

Skullzofdoom

Quote from: EdK on June 16, 2022, 02:16:38 PMIf so,  I would think this would need to be done via a Windows driver and that driver would need to be provided by Yamaha so Multplay can 'see' all the Yamaha channels.

Yamaha provides a USB Steinberg audio driver. I downloaded that, but it doesn't have much control. It allows you to change the USB sample rate from 44.1 to 48 (a TF only supports 48), it tells you the input and output latency, and you can change the buffer size. After installing it, I restarted my computer and Multiplay still wasn't able to identify any of the outputs. I basically want to tell cue 1 to output to output 2. Output 2 would be patched to channel 32 on the console and that channel would be sent to a speaker behind a CYC. Then cue 2 would output to output 1. Output 1 would be patched to channel 33. Channel 33 on the console would send to the mains. Then cue 3 could output to output 3. Output 3 would be patched to channel 34 and that would send to a speaker on SR. Hopefully this makes more sense now.

I'm having a hard time understanding how voicemeter would help. Would multiplay output to an input on voice meter and the outputs on voicemeter would be able to output to a USB input on the TF?

Also, I hate subscriptions. I wasn't able to see what the actual license cost was and if it was a subscription or not on voicemeters site. Could you let me know if it's a subscription based service or not?

David

Currently MultiPlay can only deal with audio devices that appear as stereo channel pairs.

You'd have to use something that can sit in between MultiPlay and the Yamaha and make the Yamaha appear as set of stereo devices.

I don't know what is out there that can do this.

Skullzofdoom

David, thank you for the quick reply. Do you plan on adding a feature where Multiplay can support more than just the stereo pairs?

I'll have to see Edk"s voicemeter will act as that in between or not.

Again, thanks!

David

Eventually I'd like to add support for multi channel sound devices as well as matrix style patching, but that is not in the immediate future.

EdK

HI  Skullzofdoom,

Voicemeeter is donationware....like Multiplay.  https://vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/potato.htm   Look in the "webshop" link for details.

I don't have the Yamaha mixer I don't know how it's USB interface appears in Windows.  In fact, I don't know if Voicemeeter would let you 'see' any/some/all of the mixers channels.  I only suggested it because it's free software that you could try.

I know that Voicemeeter "Potato" supports up to 5 outputs which can be hardware and/or software.  During the Covid shutdown, I was involved with a theatre group that produced livestreamed shows.  I had the need to mix input from a Zoom session, an external Mackie mixer (via line-in in Windows), and Multiplay's audio output into Voicemeeter and mix/route those in Voicemeeter as I needed back into Zoom, two in-studio PA systems (via two soundcards), and to OBS.  My requirements obviously were different than yours.

I really think you would need some sort of driver that would allow Multiplay to see and connect to each of the Yamaha channels via the USB.  Also, not being familiar with the Yamaha mixer, can it even support multi-channel input from the USB interface? 

Just thinking out loud- each of the mixers channels would need to allow 'selectable' input from a real device (like microphones/line-in) or audio coming in from a channel in the USB interface.   In my experience, the USB interfaces in mixers are mainly used to transmit/receive MIDI data providing the ability to externally control the mixers functions (mute, pan, volume, etc) and/or control external devices but not audio.

If Yamaha has a support forum, perhaps posing your question there might shed some light on what you're trying to do.

David's idea of someday supporting multi-channel sound devices and matrix patching would be great but I'm sure the development time to do so would take a while and probably require other software he probably doesn't have.  He's invested a lot of time/money to 'rewrite' Multiplay V3 and he was only able to do so via the generous donations from users like us.

Ed

Windows 10 Home x64
Dell XPS 7590 Intel i7-9750H
16gb RAM - 1tb SSD
GeForce GTX 1650

Skullzofdoom

Gotcha, voicemeeters web shop page will not load for me. I am not sure if this is an issue on my end or there's, but I just get an error saying the site can't be reached.

Yamaha windows driver is very limited and only does the 3 things I mentioned earlier. I will try voicemeeter though. Thank you for the idea.

Like I said I do have the yamaha driver, as it's working with my DAW, but like David says, if Multiplay doesn't support multi channel sound devices, there's not much else to do.

I've used Q Lab in other spaces that where able to afford the license, all you need is the yamaha driver downloaded and qlab sees all 34 USB inputs to the board. You can than select which input you want to be which output on qlab.

I'm sure the development of adding in multi-channel sound devices is hard and quite expensive. For now, I do have my work around I will use if voicemeeter doesn't work.

Thank you all for your suggestions

Brian

Hi Skullzofdoom,

Behringer do small USB interfaces (UCA 200 / UCA 202) that only cost about £25 and give you a stereo pair out. I have some of these and multiplay recognises each one individually so each USB interface can be given a different number thus you can play any CUE in the cue list out of any of the USB interfaces. This would certainly give you the facility that you are describing. Alternately you could use 1 USB interface and the AUDIO OUT from the laptop, thus giving you 2 separate outputs.  I am always using this method to output cues into 2 channels on my mixer.

Good luck

Brian

EdK

Hi Skullzofdoom,

I've had "site can't be reached" occur from time to time also with other websites.  Sometimes just waiting a couple seconds and the page would appear after the error message so it's not just on your end.

I really don't know if Voicemeeter would 'see' the mixers channels.  Voicemeeter Banana and Potato can be a bit confusing.  I think they were both afterthoughts by the developer.  The way the developer named the additional virtual inputs and outputs that Banana and Potato provide are confusing. That's what took me the longest to wrap my head around.

As for the difference between Qlab and Multiplay, the fact that one is IOS and the other Windows and slightly different hardware designs (PC vs Macs).....I'm guessing that's why one can see all the channels and the other doesn't.  Macs/IOS in general seem to provide support for more media types better than PCs/Windows.

This topic has peaked my curiosity and I've been Googling a bit to see if there was any topics similar to yours. I found several of people wanting the same/similar requirements to yours.  The closest I could find was  https://www.thesycon.de/eng/usb_audiodriver.shtml#demo   but it appears to be for developers only.

What Brian is suggesting should work for you also and probably the easiest to implement.  Essentially its like giving you another sound card that Multiplay will see.  Actually just adding any kind of external sound card(s) would work...but....they are all stereo pairs and not discrete channels   The Behringer interfaces Brian is suggesting are basically the same as the Scarlett but at a better price. Output from it would go into a standard mic/line input channels on the Yamaha. 

Windows 10 Home x64
Dell XPS 7590 Intel i7-9750H
16gb RAM - 1tb SSD
GeForce GTX 1650

Skullzofdoom

Brains solution seems to be my best bet in this situation.

I was able to get their webshop to load today. Not sure what was different this time. When I am at the theater on Monday, I will try some of voicemeters free products to see if they work for what I need. I really can't try anything until I also have the console with me. If it doesn't, like you said, Brian's solution seems the easiest, and it honestly seems the most cost effective.

I know MacOS and iPadOS have always been more prioritized in the production world. Most control apps for console are only made for iPadOS and a lot of driver are mainly made for MacOS, so I can see why Windows is harder to develop multi channel devices on.

Thank you both!

David

I've started looking into what would be required to see beyond the first two channels on an audio interface. The Behringer UMC204HD USB interface I got for testing will help with that.

So far I've added an extra line to the info hint in Production Properties > Audio > Outputs to show how many channels each device is reporting. The Behringer one does report 4 channels so that's a start.

For testing I've also added an extra column to the audio patch list to select which pair to use for that patch. Now I need to read up on how to access the extra ones.

I realise that's a bit simple as users may want to be able to use single channels or something other than odd/even stereo channels for a patch.


Skullzofdoom

David, you are awesome! Thank you for looking into this.

If I understand correctly, all 4 outputs are showing up, but currently multiplay still picks them up in stereo pairs? Like Out 1 and 2 are one output, 3 and 4 are the second, then so on if it has more than 4 channels?

If so, this is great, but definitely adding in a audio pair patch down the line would definitely help. I'm honestly not sure how common this is, but only 2 of the 6 spaces I work in have a stereo system, the other 4 have a mono. I'm not sure if mono is more common in theaters or if stereo is, to me mono is more common in the spaces I work in.

Down the line, instead of creating some new type of patch, you could keep what you currently have, but add an extra column, with a link check box. So output 1, would be assigned to the Behringer output 1, output 2 would be assigned to Behringer's output 2. Then with the link column, when this is checked, it would link output 1 and 2 together, and automatically pan o1 left and o2 right (you might have to add in an output properties page where the pan could be further adjusted by the user if needed). That way it can adapt to mono spaces or stereo systems more easily, without creating some sort of new patching system. A way to more easily name the outputs when linked would need to be made rather than just "Output 1 and 2"

Or a stereo check box could be made, when selected, this would make output 1 a stereo output and allow you to select 2 output channels for it. That way you could name it MAIN STEREO. This is different from the link idea because then your not having to name 2 different outputs.

Please let me know your thoughts. Also, again you are amazing for working on a solution for this so quickly! I really appreciate it!

David

So far I have the selection of stereo pairs working in a basic way, but have to test it some more. There can be pairs maximum per audio device, but only one can be used by a patch and therefore a cue. Different patches can select a different stereo pair from the same audio device, so different cues could access different stereo pairs of the same audio device. I will give some thought to whether I implement this for release, or to wait until I can come up with a more flexible system.

David

While testing with a Behringer UMC204HD (2 in, 4 out) interface with the latest Behringer driver, I noticed that it offers up the output channels like so:

OUT 1-4 (4 channels)
OUT 1-2 (2 channels)
OUT 3-4 (2 channels)

It's already providing the separate stereo pairs that MultiPlay can use. My extra code to choose the desired pair from the OUT 1-4 also works. I'm not sure if this is a new behavior from the Behringer driver, or if I was only using the default Windows driver before.

I know that full matrix channel selection would be preferable to some, but in the meantime maybe the new pair selection code in v177 will help you access the extra stereo pairs. Until I can get a (cheap) audio interface with larger channel count I won't be able to test beyond 4 channels.